Just don't understand the optimism about Tillman

[BaltimoreTerp]

Buck is here to win not treat the majors as instructional league. I recall Palmer earlier in the year saying the majors isn't the place for Tilly to learn how to pitch. The minors is to learn your craft, I don't give a damn what his ERA at AAA is.

If the Orioles think he needs to be removed from the rotation because he needs to work on things having him be a long man is the worst place. Those guys get no consistent work, all dependent on how the starters pitch, why put a 23 year old with some potential in that role.

Showalter's job is to best manage the club to put it in the best possible situation both now and in the future. So if that means sacrificing a little bit now to let Tillman pitch through things with the goal of being a quality major-league pitcher, so be it.

[bluedog]

Buck is here to win not treat the majors as instructional league. I recall Palmer earlier in the year saying the majors isn't the place for Tilly to learn how to pitch. The minors is to learn your craft, I don't give a damn what his ERA at AAA is.

If the Orioles think he needs to be removed from the rotation because he needs to work on things having him be a long man is the worst place. Those guys get no consistent work, all dependent on how the starters pitch, why put a 23 year old with some potential in that role.

If Tillman is effective in short 3 to 4 innings stints, as he has shown himself to be over the past 4 games, then why try to force him into a role that he's consistently shown himself ill suited for?

And seriously - if you think Buck's not interested in teaching young players how to play the game, then you haven't followed Buck's career very closely. He is most well known for his ability to take young players with talent and bring out the best in them at the major league level.

Tillman may be a pitcher who can get outs, but who simply can't pitch efficiently enough to be a starter. Our middle relief is horrible as evidenced by the performance of the bullpen tonight. The team may be better and more likely to win with Tillman in the long relief role. Have you considered that?

[cb3fsu]

I'm complaining about the fact that Tillman's inability to get the ball to Johnson in the 7th cost us a potential win tonight. And I find it amazing that you've already given up on this season and are willing to concede it and turn the O's into a developmental club. I guarantee there's no one in the dugout that believes the team can't compete this year and would agree with you that we should just give up. Buck would probably take you over his knee and spank you for suggesting that.

You have to balance expectations for the short term with long term development. Realistically, this team is not one of the best in baseball. They still do not have a legit 3rd or 4th hitter. I love watching them and I think they are making significant progress, mostly in regards to starting pitching.

Britton is going to be shut down early in almost any scenario. Who knows how many games Roberts will miss the rest of the year. I'm not sure anyone on the team will finish with an .850 OPS.

Meanwhile, Bergesen hasn't exactly set the world on fire. In 8 starts he's been terrible in 3, and pitched 5 or less innings 5 times. He's saved the bullpen, your main argument for him exactly once in a complete game shutout. Its not as though this has been his typical performance and for the record, this is the only game the team has won that he's started.

They have won 5 of Tillmans 10 starts.

1-7 in Bergesen starts, 5-5 in Tillman starts.

Tillman is younger, has more upside, has pitched better overall and the team has won more of his starts. Where exactly is your argument?

[bluedog]

Showalter's job is to best manage the club to put it in the best possible situation both now and in the future. So if that means sacrificing a little bit now to let Tillman pitch through things with the goal of being a quality major-league pitcher, so be it.

I really don't think Showalter would willingly sacrifice the team's chances of competing now for a possible long term benefit to the club. If that were the case, I don't think we sign Lee or Guerrero or Gregg or Rupe or Rapada or Jakubauskas or Duke. I don't think the team promotes Britton when Matusz goes down and risks accelerating his move through the minors or starting his service clock sooner than necessary.

The O's are playing to win now. They aren't going to put the development of a single player above the putting the best possible team on the field.

[bluedog]

You have to balance expectations for the short term with long term development. Realistically, this team is not one of the best in baseball. They still do not have a legit 3rd or 4th hitter. I love watching them and I think they are making significant progress, mostly in regards to starting pitching.

Britton is going to be shut down early in almost any scenario. Who knows how many games Roberts will miss the rest of the year. I'm not sure anyone on the team will finish with an .850 OPS.

Meanwhile, Bergesen hasn't exactly set the world on fire. In 8 starts he's been terrible in 3, and pitched 5 or less innings 5 times. He's saved the bullpen, your main argument for him exactly once in a complete game shutout. Its not as though this has been his typical performance and for the record, this is the only game the team has won that he's started.

They have won 5 of Tillmans 10 starts.

1-7 in Bergesen starts, 5-5 in Tillman starts.

Tillman is younger, has more upside, has pitched better overall and the team has won more of his starts. Where exactly is your argument?

Apparently you are happy with a starter that can't get through 5 innings on a consistent basis. I'm not. That's my argument.

[ccbird]

If you're frustrated by Tillman, I can only imagine how pissed you must be by BB. After all his results are significantly worse than Tillman's results, he is a ground ball pitcher yet has a 0.56 G/F ratio, he has more time in the majors, and he is going to be 26 this season. You keep referring to how good BB's command is, but I'm not sure what pitcher you've been watching this year. I don't see a guy with good command at all.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/player/stats/_/id/29204/brad-bergesen

Tillman pitched poorly tonight, no doubt. However, the umpire had a really tight strike zone that killed both starters and got the A's manager ejected. That definitely was part of the issue tonight. Tillman struck out Willingham twice in one AB but didn't get the call before walking him.

Which is why I'm not going to make a stink about TIllman remaining in the rotation over Bergy. Bergy has been just as bad but he works faster and is more effecient which makes him less frustrating to watch. But you know deep down Tillman isn't going to make it as a big league starter. You might not come out and go on the record yet but you know it's highly unlikely he turns things around.

[ccbird]

I think BB will pitch for several more years in the majors, but I don't think he has any chance to have a better career than Chris Tillman. I'm not particularly high on Tillman's chances long term, but he has a much better shot.

I agree BB is easier to watch pitch right now, but I don't want to use that criteria to determine who should stay here (not saying you want to do that either).

Note that I did change by post to "starter" from "pitcher". I agree that Tillman still has a chance to be an effective pitcher out of the pen.

[cb3fsu]

Apparently you are happy with a starter that can't get through 5 innings on a consistent basis. I'm not. That's my argument.

Your argument is very weak when the alternative you suggest has not proven himself capable of doing much better. Tillman has made it through 5 inning 6/10 starts with better results than Bergesen's 5/8 starts.

You act as though Bergesen is the second coming of Catfish Hunter, throwing complete game after complete game when he's only made it to the 7th inning ONE TIME.

He's got just about no upside.

You really think there's a better chance that this Orioles team makes the playoffs than Tillman figures out how to get into the 6th inning consistently by year's end?

This team with no offense, an inconsistent bullpen, no reliable closer, that will likely shut their best pitcher down at about 170 innings is going to beat out the Yankees, Redsox and Rays?

Sorry, I just don't see it. Next year is the time to make the big run if they can sign a real cleanup hitter like Fielder and let their rotation grow this season.

Vlad looks like Omar after he jumped off a 4th floor balcony. Lee can't stay on the field. Reynolds can't hit his weight. These guys were brought in because those positions desperately needed to be filled and they came at the right price and length of contract. They weren't win now options. They were fill ins until some real FA's became available.

1. ROBERTS 2B

2. MARKAKIS RF

3. JONES CF

4. FIELDER 1B

5. SCOTT DH

6. WIETERS C

7. REIMOLD LF

8. REYNOLDS 3B

9. HARDY 2B

1. MATUSZ

2. BRITTON

3. ARRIETA

4. GUTHRIE

5. TILLMAN

These guys with another year under their belts and a real cleanup hitter look a lot closer to a playoff team than the current group IMO. I applaud your optimism, although I do not share it.

Unless Tillman has a complete meltdown I can't see any possible way he is removed from the rotation, especially for Bergesen.

[cb3fsu]

Which is why I'm not going to make a stink about TIllman remaining in the rotation over Bergy. Bergy has been just as bad but he works faster and is more effecient which makes him less frustrating to watch. But you know deep down Tillman isn't going to make it as a big league starter. You might not come out and go on the record yet but you know it's highly unlikely he turns things around.

Yes, there is no way the 23 year old who has allowed 3 or less runs in 7 of 10 starts this season is going to become a major league pitcher. Because at 23 he is still nibbling too much and throwing too many pitches to make it deep into games, just like Matusz did at that age.

Its amazing to me that by your estimation this Orioles team has a great shot at making the playoffs but a 23 year old who has pitched very well for his age and has put his team in position to win 70% of the time is just never going to make it.

Do you just enjoy going out on a limb whenever possible? Are you a fan of profound prognostications?

Deep down I know I'm watching a 23 year old who has been successful at every level hang in and battle. And I am happy to continue watching him battle as he learns to attack hitters, conserve pitches and make it one or two more innings deeper into games than he is right now.

[Genya]

If you're frustrated by Tillman, I can only imagine how pissed you must be by BB. After all his results are significantly worse than Tillman's results, he is a ground ball pitcher yet has a 0.56 G/F ratio, he has more time in the majors, and he is going to be 26 this season. You keep referring to how good BB's command is, but I'm not sure what pitcher you've been watching this year. I don't see a guy with good command at all.

Bergesen's 2.62 BB/9 is second best of the starters behind Guthrie.

Both Tillman and Bergesen have been in the majors for 3 years, and Tillman's numbers are considerably worse. Even if you take out Bergy's 2009 numbers, he still has a better ERA, WHIP, BB/9, SO/BB, % Quality Starts.

2010-11 AVG	ERA	WHIP	H/9	HR/9	BB/9	SO/9	SO/BB	QS/StartsTillman	        5.46	1.54	9.45	1.01	4.44	5.65	1.34	0.35Bergesen	5.12	1.43	10.14	1.28	2.68	4.49	1.67	0.39

[Gurgi]

I have not seen Tillman pitch anytime as good as Bergy did in 09. We know Bergensen has it in him to be pretty good. Tillman not so much. Also Bergy can hit 93 consistantly.

[now]

This team with no offense, an inconsistent bullpen, no reliable closer, that will likely shut their best pitcher down at about 170 innings is going to beat out the Yankees, Redsox and Rays?

Sorry, I just don't see it. Next year is the time to make the big run if they can sign a real cleanup hitter like Fielder and let their rotation grow this season.

Vlad looks like Omar after he jumped off a 4th floor balcony. Lee can't stay on the field. Reynolds can't hit his weight. These guys were brought in because those positions desperately needed to be filled and they came at the right price and length of contract. They weren't win now options. They were fill ins until some real FA's became available.

1. ROBERTS 2B

2. MARKAKIS RF

3. JONES CF

4. FIELDER 1B

5. SCOTT DH

6. WIETERS C

7. REIMOLD LF

8. REYNOLDS 3B

9. HARDY 2B

1. MATUSZ

2. BRITTON

3. ARRIETA

4. GUTHRIE

5. TILLMAN

These guys with another year under their belts and a real cleanup hitter look a lot closer to a playoff team than the current group IMO. I applaud your optimism, although I do not share it.

Unless Tillman has a complete meltdown I can't see any possible way he is removed from the rotation, especially for Bergesen.

Hmm, I'm inclined to stick with Tillman too, but not sure that supporting cast is our playoff team (the ALL CAPS notwithstanding). First off, what about the bullpen? Missing in action from your post... just as well. Reynolds whom you discount this year is still around next year, I notice. Roberts is optimism, Markakis Ichiro lite, Scott still there?, and Reimold sure, I'll pray with you.

That rotation I'll take. I think it'll take more than Prince to upgrade to the playoffs, though.

[Frobby]

Apparently you are happy with a starter that can't get through 5 innings on a consistent basis. I'm not. That's my argument.

Your argument would be better if Bergesen had pitched better. The fact is, neither pitcher has exactly seized the opportunity presented to them. If Bergy pitches well today and goes 7 innings, Buck's choice gets interesting. I don't think anyone is "giddy" over Tillman (your word). But as between two pitchers who aren't wowing anyone right now, some prefer the guy who is younger and has better secondary pitches.

I've been plenty supportive of both pitchers. But I'm pretty underwhelmed by both at the moment.

[Dr. FLK]

Twenty-three. Young.

I'll give you that part.

[EutawStreet]

Someone help me understand how this is even an argument. It is plain and simple...when Tillman pitches we are very much in the game when he comes out, when Bergy pitches we are not. I would much rather have a starter go 5 innings every outing and give up 1 run than have Bergesen pitch 6 or 7 and give up 4-6 runs. Who cares if Tillman is "lucky"? As long as we have a shot to win, who gives a ****? When Bergesen pitches, I have zero confidence that we will win. I have nothing against Bergesen but he just isn't any good. Tillman may not be either but he is consistently putting together reasonable starts for a #5 starter.